#2: Joanna Brown on Authenticity in Wedding Photography, Redefining How Women Are Visually Represented, Being a Bride and Balancing Motherhood with Entrepreneurship

LOVEMYDRESS.NET    //    Joanna Brown is a gifted British wedding photographer who resides in Brighton in the South East of England, and Normandy in France, where she's renovating a beautiful property, alongside her young son, Fox, and fiancé, Andrew.

Joanna has been photographing for the past 30 years and shooting weddings for the last 13 of these. We met online, shortly after Joanna entered the wedding scene, and then went on to meet in person and get to know each other better when we attended the wedding of a mutual friend and colleague. Eventually, we would work together when, 10 years ago, Joanna photographed the contents of my book, Style Me Vintage Weddings, published in 2013.

Joanna has come a long way since then - her body of work, which has been featured in Vogue, The Together Journal, The Lane and of course, Love My Dress, has evolved into a truly exquisite collection of art that sensitively, playfully and timelessly portrays the essence of human connection, life and the pure moments of the joy that unfold on a wedding day.

Jo’s passion for sharing how she sees the world is infectious. She said recently, “My art is basically my heart in physical form. As long as my heart is still beating then I will continue to make art.” And through her 13 years of creating art for couples in love, she has remained unwaveringly true to her authentic self and unique perspective on life.

In her own words, Jo is “committed to living a creative and abundant life full of colour, vibrance and adventure and carving out an unchartered path.”  I am to have had the opportunity to have Jo share her wisdom, insights and personal story.

JOANNA BROWN:
joannabrownphotography.com
@joannabrownphotos

Also mentioned in this Podcast:
@counterpartphotos
John Dolan

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Chapters

• 1:50 Guest Introduction - Joanna Brown
• 3:43 Joanna on the importance of her childhood experience
• 9:30 Discovering photography through 'Media Studies' & buying her first camera
• 12:21 College, university & choosing not to move to London
• 15:32 Discovering wedding photography by accident
• 21:25 On Alan Sugar, imposter syndrome & the difficulties of running your own business
• 24:58 Being authentic in your work & embracing your sense of self
• 31:46 The 'female gaze' and redefining how women are visually represented
• 38:54 How Jo describes her wedding photography and what is a 'documentary wedding photographer'?
• 42:51 The importance of wedding day group & people shots
• 51:06 The importance and influence of nature in Jo's personal and professional life
• 54:37 Mentoring
• 58:50 Counterpart Photos, dreaming big always and the importance of perseverance and longevity
• 1:07:17 Jo, on her own wedding and being a bride
• 1:08:43 On balancing it all (wedding planning, business ownership and motherhood)
• 1:16:43 Renovating in Normandy
• 1:22:45 Staying fit
• 1:26:22 Advice for aspiring wedding photographers & working how much to charge
• 1:30:00 Fun questions for Jo

Transcript

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Welcome to the Love My Dress podcast. 

I am your host and founder of Love My Dress, Annabel Beeforth, and I'm absolutely thrilled that you're here.

This podcast has been created for anyone planning their wedding, for all wedding business owners and everyone interested in the world of creative business entrepreneurship, whether you're deeply involved in the wedding industry, on its periphery, or just generally curious. 

In each episode, I'll be engaging in conversation with inspiring business owners. Together, we'll explore topics ranging from weddings and business, to personal life experiences that have influenced the careers and lives of my guests. 

In this fast-paced, technology dominated era we are all living through, I have quite strong feelings about the importance of slowing things down to a kinder, more gentler pace. I’m also passionate about storytelling and enabling the stories of others to be told. Stories are for me, the universal currency of our communication - they connect people across time, cultures, and experiences. They inspire us to do new things and they help to foster empathy. I also believe in the beauty of uninterrupted, meaningful conversation, and I want to create a warm and welcoming space, where individuals can share their stories freely and authentically. So, because of this, conversations with my guests are long and explorative. 

If you enjoy listening to this conversation, please take a moment to leave a friendly rating or review - your support really does mean the world. 

And now, it’s time to introduce my latest guest. 

My guest this episode is the wonderful Joanna Brown, a gifted British wedding photographer who resides in Brighton, in the South East of England and Normandy in France, where she is renovating a beautiful property, alongside her young son, Fox, and her fiance, Andrew.

Joanna has been photographing for the past 30 years and shooting weddings for the last 13 of these. We met online shortly after Joanna entered the wedding scene and then went on to meet in person and get to know each other better when we attended the wedding of a mutual friend and colleague.

Eventually, we went on to work together when, 10 years ago, Joanna photographed the contents of my book, Style Me Vintage Weddings, published in 2013. 

Joanna has come a very long way since then. Her body of work, which I adore, has been featured in Vogue, The Together Journal, The Lane, and of course, Love My Dress, it has evolved into a truly exquisite collection of art that sensitively, playfully, and timelessly portrays the essence of human connection, life, and all those pure moments of joy that unfolds on a wedding day. 

Jo's passion for sharing how she sees the world is infectious. She said recently, "'My art is basically my heart in physical form. As long as my heart is still beating, then I will continue to make art.” I just love those words so much. And through her 13 years of creating art for couples in love, she has remained unwaveringly true to her authentic self and unique perspective on life. In her own words, Jo is committed to living a creative and abundant life full of colour, vibrance and adventure, and carving out an uncharted path. I am so delighted to have Joanna here today to share her wisdom, insights and personal story with us. 
Joanna, welcome to the Love My Dress podcast.

I would like to dive right in by journeying back to your childhood and asking, have you always been such a creative soul?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Hello everybody, by the way. It's so nice to be here and have a chat.

So yeah, my childhood, I was lucky enough to be born so many years ago that my childhood had a lot of freedom. At the time, obviously, you rail against your parents and it's, you know, you always think the grass is always greener, but actually, in retrospect, I was very lucky. 

I grew up outside a very small town, in a village, in the South of England. We had a dog, we were part of the village community, we had a river down the road, we had a lot of freedom, we had space, fresh air. We didn't even have like a Sinclair spectrum and if you know what that is you're as old as me. 

So, we had a very simple, quite wholesome upbringing. We were part of a community. My mum and dad were very involved in the church. We went to like the village school. Everybody knew each other. We had freedom to roam. I had this dog called Bean, and we just used to walk down the river. I mean, thinking about it now, it sounds really heavenly, but we were also very bored, having to make up games, being resourceful, I think, you know, that we could only watch TV for like an hour a day. Having that experience, I think, gives you some sort of grounded… We used our, me and my sister, we had to use our imagination. And it was, I guess, internally, we were creating, you know, like excitement because we thought everything was really boring and dull, but actually it was full of community, space, fresh air, time. You know, I mean, that's idyllic, isn't it?

ANNABEL (HOST) 
It sounds absolutely idyllic. It sounds just like the kind of childhood that I think every child needs now. A lot of them don't have the opportunity.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It was just, it was beautiful. And I recently talked to my dad about it actually, because we're really close. And I just thanked him. And I said, thank you so much for giving us that experience and that childhood, the people that he surrounded himself with have an imprint and an effect on, you know, your children and me. And I sort of said to him, there's key people that I remember from him that he knew, that he brought into our family. We were like a hub of community and rural life and that's gold dust. And I can see how it's, I come back to it time and time again. I can see what I'm trying to pass on to my son. And it gives me hope actually.


ANNABEL (HOST) 
It sounds so lovely Jo, and by the way I do remember the 48k spectrum I was obsessed. 

JOANNA (GUEST) 
I talked to my son about it and he's just like, what? What do you mean? There's no computer. I was like, no, I'm a typewriter. I showed him one, ironically on the internet. And he was like, that’s a typewriter? I don't understand. 
I was like, no.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Yeah, I remember, we used to have to load the games. It would take about 45 minutes to an hour to load a game to play. 

Anyway, your childhood does sound like something that you've leaned into very much as you've kind of grown and developed your career. But, you know, was there a point where you kind of discovered that you liked taking images? Were you given a camera? Was it that classic kind of scenario where you were gifted a camera as a child and thought, this is it. Or did you have some kind of epiphany as you were growing up? What happened there?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
You know what, there isn't like a big sort of romantic story around this. Because you know when you sort of read things about people you really admire and they were given this thing by this special person and it unlocked a door? None of that happened for me. I do remember what I used to do is we used to have to go quite a lot of places and I'd be very bored. Mum used to say, just take a pen and paper with you because you're bored and I used to draw all the time. And I remember we used to go and visit my Aunt Hetty in this old people's home and I was really sort of scared by this place. And I just crouched on the corner and like on the floor and I would sort of draw, but I would never have pen and paper when I needed to. So I used to do it on my leg. And actually what I think I started to do was I really subconsciously was looking at a point of view and I was sketching out like a composition, really. And I remember doing this time and time and time again. And I would remember like these adult conversations going on and me sort of like doing imaginary drawing, or if actually I'd remember to take a pen and paper, I would draw. And it's very linear about the figures and the positioning of things. And actually, if I think about it, maybe that's where my really strong understanding of composition comes from now. And I used to spend hours and hours and hours and hours doing that. 

And then when I was at school, I didn't like school at all. And I went to like a, the local comp, which was in a girls school, but it was just really like harsh. So I used to play sport just to avoid going in the canteen. And so I just really disengaged with anything to do with school.
I wasn't this sort of like, you know, budding artist. I just played sport. I was sort of, I think the teachers just thought, I was an all-rounder, but I didn't really. But I secretly, whenever I went to the art room, I would be like, oh God, I love it here. But I wasn't very confident to kind of like really put myself into that space. And I was defined by playing sport for the school. So it wasn't until I went to sixth form, and this is like, the thing is, this wasn't planned. I basically had to choose different subjects which had to sit in this timetable. My original option, which was psychology, they said, that doesn't fit with the other options you chose. You need to choose something out of this list. It was either chemistry, history, French, and there was this one called media studies. I remember speaking to the thing going, what's that?

And she basically says, oh, you watch telly. I was like, great, I'll do that. So that was what I did at A level. And as part of that, there was photography. And so we got given a camera. And Jackie, my teacher, was the bee's knees. And she set us these projects and so we had one camera between like five of us. Do you know what I mean? I remember just thinking, oh yeah, I like this,  I really like this. I could tell that I could, I had this understanding of like, I could see the world through it. It was like, Oh God, you know, cause I love drawing and stuff, but to be honest, like I'm not very patient and it would take quite a long time. Whereas the camera for me was like, I could instantly like capture something. And we did have a dark room, you know, I wasn't great. I did the basics in the bare minimum, you know, I was at sixth form. I wasn't really particularly like serious about anything, to be honest.

So that was my first taster into it. And I secretly fell in love with it. But strangely, I didn't make that known. So it's like a secret love affair. And then my grandmother died and she left me some money. And I bought a camera with it. I remember my mum was like, don't waste this down the pub.

It wasn't much, it was like 500 quid. I remember just thinking, oh, maybe I can buy a camera. And then the rest you can say is history. I thought, from her legacy, she was like a really strong, amazing woman. She brought up my mum single-handedly and I just thought she's giving me a gift of some money. That was a lot of money in those days. And I bought this camera. And then my love affair with photography grew from then.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
That's amazing. And I found a quote actually, when I was researching you, basically stalking you online, Joanna, you’ll have to forgive me. But I found many quotes from you actually that I loved. It was a really lovely experience. But one of them was, it goes like this, “I genuinely have a fire that burns for this and it's a labour of love and my life's calling”. 

So how old were you when you got your camera? And what age did you realise I could potentially make a career out of this?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
I didn't ever, I mean, I am also one of those people that didn't ever think I could have a career on anything. I was quite ditzy. I was just doing the next thing, you know, so after college, I went to uni, you know, after uni, then I just went and tried to get a job. I did, I went on to do media studies, of course. It was the first media studies course in the country and we had options and I spent, I did all of the photography options. I was always in the dark room. And my photography teacher, he was called Greg. It's funny how you remember their names, isn't it? And he was this incredible photographer and he was a standup comic. He was the first person that showed me that you can have multitudes. And his humour came across in his photography, but he was really intelligent and really academic. So he had this really interesting mix. And I so wanted to be good at this and I wasn't, I really wasn't. We'd have these group crits and there was this girl there called Jennifer and she was really good. And it was effortless for her. She would just take these pictures, these moments would happen. I grafted, I was in that dark room for hours. He only let us shoot black and white film. He was hard on us and he was demanding. And in these group crits, he would humiliate you. Just be like, you know, he was critical in a way which probably, you know, I needed, but I remember thinking, but because I'm quite stubborn and I think this is this fire in me that I just thought, no, you're making me feel bad and I know I wasn't good and I had a lot to learn and he really made us work for it. There wasn't this suddenly this sort of like, oh, everything's fine.

He was hard on us all because he really pushed us. He really pushed us. I remember that in my degree and thinking, I actually came out thinking I was rubbish. My end of year project was really good. But oh my god, he was hard on us. So I never really had that self-belief that I'm going to be a photographer. And also at the end of the degree, it was very clear, like if you want to be a photographer, what you’d have to do and you'd have to move to London and you'd have to go and work for a studio and you would have to work your way up. 

And I'm a little bit of a hippie at heart, and I couldn't face moving to London. My mate who did photography, she went and worked for Rankin, you know, Dazed and Confused, like she did the whole thing. And I was going to visit her and I'll be like, and that was when it was at Old Street, oh my God, it was chaos in there. You know, and I made a choice at that point when I left university that I wasn't going to move to London, that automatically ruled out a career in photography. Because nothing really happens outside of London, so I moved to the sea, I chose my lifestyle over a career, which is possibly something which I still do now. So I didn't ever have an aspiration to be a photographer. I wanted to go and live by the sea and be creative.

I had a real love for photography. I was not, I didn't think I was, you know, any mover and shaker, but I just thought I did the next thing. I moved to the sea. I worked in publishing and it was fun actually. It was really good fun.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
So I understand you've left uni, you went through that kind of brutal experience, but were very proud of your project that you did for your final degree project. Perhaps you can touch on that as well at some point. But at what point did you then fall into the wedding photography scene?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Yeah, by accident, basically, Annabel. I had this aspiration to be an artist. So there was a step between. So I worked in publishing, and then I got made redundant. And they gave me loads of money. And I was like, oh, what are we going to do? So I went, I got a one-way ticket to Australia. And I worked for a studio. I sort of played out in Sydney, kind of like what I could have done in London. And actually, I worked for a dance music magazine. I lived in a van and I worked with this guy in his studio. It was wild, you know, it was great. And I was just like, oh, this is a gift. And I really fell back in love with my photography. And I did think about coming back and then moving to London, because I was like, that is the only place I can do it. But I came back to Brighton and I did another U-turn. I trained to be a lecturer, so post-compulsory education. So what was working in colleges on A levels, that kind of thing. And basically what I decided to do whilst working in these different colleges, I use their dark rooms. So when I wasn't teaching, I was doing my own work and my aspiration was to exhibit my photographs and get grants from the Arts Council. So that's where I was going. And also I sneakily used to go into Brighton University’s dark room, because nobody would stop you. They didn't know I wasn't a student. So basically I was using all these different facilities around me and I was making personal work applying for grants. But again, it's really cutthroat. You've got to be in London. It's all about who you know. And a lot of things is like that. And again, I just rebelled against it because that's in my nature. I just thought, you know what? I'm not, because it's about networking. and I'm a bit anti-networking. I'm a bit of a lone wolf, so I was a bit like, ugh. And then weirdly at the same time, so I was trying, so I was lecturing in my daytime, making my own artwork with this aspiration. Then a couple of my friends got engaged, and I was also a bit like, oh God, why are you getting engaged? Oh, that's really boring, you know. I'm hitchhiking to Glastonbury and sort of like working in dark rooms undercover. You know, a lot of my friends were getting settled down. I was like, oh.
I remember my really good friend Mary said, Oh, Jo, will you take some pictures? I remember thinking, Oh God, really? Oh, this is going to be difficult because I didn't really have a good impression of weddings. My parents had split up and I just thought it was just a bit naff. So I said, Yeah, I'll take some pictures. I didn't, I hadn't seen any wedding photography and Mary's very laid back and she's like, great. 

I shot her wedding. I just went with my camera and some film. I mean, she's still got the pictures up in her house, which is amazing. And they're pretty good. They're pretty good. And then I had a spate of friends getting married. So then I then would go, oh, for your present, I'm gonna photograph it. But you know, after a certain time, I'm gonna put the camera down. And I wasn't photographing as a wedding photographer. I just had a camera around my neck and I was just taking photographs. And then in a strange coincidence, my sister got married. So I shot her wedding. Then my dad got remarried and I shot his wedding. And then my mum got remarried and they all got married within two weeks of each other. You know, like it's extraordinary. And then suddenly I had this, unbeknownst to me, then I had like a portfolio but I didn't do anything for a long, long time that, you know, like…

I still don't know where half of the photographs are because I'm quite chaotic. It was only really a few years old when I started to get disenchanted with teaching. And I and I sort of let go of my notion of being this exhibiting artist. And I sort of revisited it. And I just suddenly thought the teaching thing. It was good, but I wanted to be making my own work. And I found accessing trying to make work very difficult and I remembered the access that I got at a wedding to taking photographs. So I just literally put, I think I've got a website together which cost me like ten quid and I put twenty images on it and then I think I just ran a Facebook ad. I stopped people in the street in Brighton to do some portraits and then little by little, very very slowly, people were like, can you shoot my wedding? And those people actually thinking back to them, they had a lot of trust in me because it was very flimsy. You know, like the evidence that I was charging, you know, like 400 quid to begin with, you know, hope it'll be alright, but you know, I'm a photographer, so it was gonna be alright, but in terms of managing their expectations, people paying you to do it, that was like a big leap.

But, you know, I just thought, oh, well, I'll give it a go. And I remember thinking I'll give this a year. And if it's still going, then fine, I'll just crack on. And here I am 13 years later. 



ANNABEL (HOST)
Wow, Jo, honestly. And talking about those people who took like a leap of faith, I always think those people are angels. And I want to go back and thank them years later because you think, my God, if it wasn't for them, having that trust.

JOANNA (GUEST)
And just some connection between you, which they said, yeah, go on then. You know, and I remember just going to a couple of these first meetings and I used to do this thing. I used to like have this alter ego, as in like this business woman. So I used to like dress, I'd have this outfit I'd wear. I also, I need to thank Alan Sugar at this point because most of my business is built on watching The Apprentice. And I used to sort of like watch him in the boardroom, get dressed up and go to these meetings. Because you know, I'm just, you know, got imposter syndrome and I was much younger and just thought, oh, this is ridiculous, and literally, I'd turn up to these people and just have this very small portfolio and just chat.

And thank God, because they're literally angels, because they might have just gone, gosh, no, this is ridiculous. But I don't know what the other options were. You know, I'm not sure. They were the best at that time, maybe. I don't know.

ANNABEL (HOST)
That's so interesting about Alan Sugar. Do you feel like you still experience imposter syndrome? Or is that something that you feel like you've gotten over now?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Oh God, all the time. All the time. Running a business is really difficult,  you know, I have really good days and really bad days and being in business for a long time, as you know, you, you all experiences the good. highs and the lows when you haven't got any money or something goes wrong or oh hang on there's a pandemic and suddenly you can't work, you know and it's tough and as a woman and being an artist where I'm quite soft and sensitive. I have to literally put on a different hat for that sometimes and you know I'm not. I'm not resilient and strong and business-minded. I am

ANNABEL (HOST) 
But you know what Jo. I think that you’re being honest and you’re just projecting every piece of you from your heart, that authenticity is your strength and perhaps it's taking you some time to realise that. But I see that now as an absolute strength of yours.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
That's kind. I mean, I still could brush up on the business side of things. And I do, you know, I still do watch Alan Sugar. And I love, you know, I love his sort of ethos. He’s authentic, he's grafted. I really believe in grafting. And I think my parents grafted and their parents grafted. And I'm trying to get my son to graft.

You can graft through most things and you don't give up and you learn and you're stretched sometimes and you go, oh, that was surprising. But you don't let it get you down. And, you know, Alan Sugar with his sort of work ethic, he surrounds himself with good people and he's always laughing, you know. Don't take it too seriously. Like, yes, of course, I'm serious. I'm very serious about my art. I'm very serious about my business. But at the end of the day, we're all just humans and it can be difficult and you know, like, running a business is hard. But you know, I like, I do like a challenge and I'm not gonna just, I wasn't prepared to fail from that point of running a business because you know, running a business is part of it. Being a photographer is the other part of it and I felt like there's two hats you have to wear and you have to distinguish like that hat goes off, business hat on. Right, how do I problem solve this? And I've had to coach myself to do that because that's not naturally how I am you know I'll be like oh just gonna wander around a bit and think about that and or avoid things you know it's too difficult but you know, yeah

ANNABEL (HOST)
That's flagged up some really interesting topics I want to explore a little later on in the conversation around challenges and persevering through personal challenges to get where you want to be. But first of all, I just want to dive a little bit deeper into the whole issue of authenticity because, you know, I feel really humbled having this conversation with you, I feel that you are somebody who really beautifully and naturally embodies authenticity in their work and that your photography really feels like a profound and genuine expression of what's in your heart. I find it really inspiring. 

With that in mind, I want to invite you to share your thoughts on your commitment to authenticity and your creative journey. Has that always come naturally to you? Because we're in a very competitive industry, are we not, as a wedding photographer? And I think self-promotion is always present. It's all around us on social media. How do you navigate the delicate balance of marketing yourself and your business without compromising your authenticity or sacrificing your artistic integrity? 

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Well, I, before you run a business, as just a human, it's useful to know who you are. I don't know how, but I was gifted some wisdom, I think, probably when I was a bit too young.  I have this sense of self, which is a power in me. I mean, if you spoke to my dad, he says, I'm bloody minded, and stubborn, and a bit wild. But actually, what it was I identified a sense of self before I became a photographer. And I think that's quite unusual to be that sort of headstrong. And it's a great quality to have, but ask anyone who lives with me, it's also quite challenging. And so because I do have a quite strong sense of self, it's sort of unwavering, really and so then everything I put my hand to is an extension of that. You know, it all comes from this place of, an authenticity of like an extension of like from my heart. So I guess with the business, I've always come back to that place, resourced myself from what's in me. I'm not looking externally. And I don't know where that came from, that bit of nugget of gold there, because I'm not looking to fit in, I'm not looking to be popular. I'm not looking to be the best. I'm not looking to be trendy. God, that looks exhausting. 

I'm trying to just be like, that ridiculous phrase, you know, I am enough.  I just want to do what I do really well and be really clear on what I do. And having that sort of groundedness to, you know, like when you're a parent, you just have to be steady. You know, like your kid just needs to know where they're at. They need routine. You know, I, I'm pretty steady in my sense of knowing what I am and who I am and what I'm interested in and how I see the world. You know, I've got this imagination. It's all like an internal world for me, which I'm lucky enough that is vibrant. 

I have had moments, you know, when I was younger, trying to, I remember I used to, I tried to rub my freckles off with lemon juice. And I tried to dye my hair to be like my best mate, cause she was gorgeous in my eyes. She had blonde hair, she tanned, you know, I had red hair and freckles.

It was just awful. Maybe that's something to do with the fact that then I had to sort of, I didn't really fit in. You know, I looked a bit different. We lived a bit differently to others. And maybe I just accepted it because I did try to sort of be different. And I have had moments in wedding photography, don't get me wrong, of going, hang on a minute. Maybe I do want to be, have an award or maybe I do want to be really popular. It's a fleeting thought. you know, because you're only human and I'm not going to pretend that there aren't those moments that you think, oh maybe I do need to edit a bit differently and then I think, oh stop that, come on, you know, then I go back to myself, look at my books, get back in touch with my sense of self and then go, oh no, that, you know, often that comes out of insecurity. So I've just committed to me, I just think it's hard enough, all of this stuff living and being a human. I don't want to make it any more complicated, so I'll just be me. And also, I'm, you know, I just thought it's divisive in the way that people will either love it or not like it. And I think Alan Sugar, probably, this is probably a nugget from him. He was like, if you're going to be niche, you know, you're not going to be for everyone. So just suck that up. And I think I was just like, okay, well, I'll just, I'll just be me and the people that it's not their cup of tea, fine, we'll just crack on. And that leaves room for the other people who engage with it, who can connect with it, to come in and be my clients and just, you know, I'm not here to please everyone.

ANNABEL (HOST)
It sounds like you don't need to look in any place externally for validation of any kind that you are seeking that within yourself, which sounds really and feels really wholesome to me. I think that's the goal, isn't it? To be comfortable within yourself and confident in your own artistic integrity. 

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Exactly, and then from that point, then you have absolute freedom. And I think I'm a freedom seeker. I mean, you know, like to have a sense of peace and harmony for me is, you know, more than money. You know, like that's the ultimate goal. And for me to have a sense of self where then I can just go, I'm gonna produce this art for you, wholeheartedly, I will graft and I'm going to produce this art for you. That is it. And then my beautiful, wonderful clients from day one have just said, sure, let's go. And for that, I just think every time someone says that, they're kind of giving me permission to them to be authentic. And through that process, then it allows them to be authentic. It's like a, you know, it breeds that kind of relationship, those kind of images. It's this unfolding of natural kind of essence, of energy, of the beauty of being a human being. And it's, I don't know how else to do it because it looks exhausting the other options. And maybe somewhere along the line, I worked out not to fight or try to be something that I'm not, you know, my freckles are still here. And you know, what a waste of time that would have been. 

ANNABEL (HOST) 
I think your freckles are beautiful, Jo. 

Listen, I want to bring you back to your final year project at university. And I think this is your final year project anyway, but the following words are from your own website. Now they go like this. I believe that shooting as a woman has informed how I see the world. And a big part of my work is redefining how women are visually represented. My ongoing process is to immerse myself within the dialogue around the female gaze creating images which are playful, sensitive, timeless, yet strong. 

Can you tell me more about what that means to you, Jo?

JOANNA (GUEST)
Yeah, that is exactly where my end of year project, because obviously I had a male photography teacher, all the references were male. You know, photography is historically a male pursuit and in many genres is still male dominated. And I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been to a wedding and a man has come up to me and said, where's the other one? Where's your boss? And I'm like, no, I am the boss. They're like, oh, you know how to use a camera. I mean, don't get me started, but I really understood the context of photography. 

So for my final project, I got myself a mannequin. She was a naked mannequin. And what I decided to do was I took this mannequin with me everywhere I went. And I would put her up. I would put her together because she was in two halves with her arms and her legs. And I would leave her in places and I would hide. I mean, this sounds mental doesn't it? I mean, I was a student at the time. I had a lot of time on my hands. And then I would photograph people, interactions with this mannequin. And I thought the mannequin was this sort of like the ideal woman. Do you not think she's the perfect size 10? I mean, she didn't speak. You know, she was really pretty. And I would just sort of leave her abandoned in different places. So I was playing with this idea of the male gaze, but then seeing what happened, shooting it through a woman's eyes. And some of the behaviour that I witnessed, you can imagine. And I just, I did it for six months. 

I got thrown off the pier with it because they said that it was causing too much of a commotion. I put her on Devil's Dyke in this storm as she fell over and then these men, oh, you don't want to know actually, like and I photographed it all. So I was looking at this idea of a woman being always looked at and objectified. And the mannequin was my way of doing that. But then me photographing through the female gaze. But really, I was clocking the male relationship with this mannequin. 

As you can see, I was heavily into feminism at the time. And I produced this really interesting body of work, which I have no idea where it is now. But it just really sharpens me up to this idea of we don't see many images created by women. We're saturated by images made for men by men and unfortunately that's still very much the way of the world. And being a woman I just like that pisses me off, it’s 2023, like I know things have moved on a lot. I mean, we're talking 30 odd years ago. There wasn't many women photographers out there. You know, it was all the historical photographers. They're all men, Magnum, that's all men. You know, I'm not saying nothing to say that these aren't really good photographers, but I just, I'm like, women have a voice. We see things differently. Like I don't objectify a woman in that way. I'm not looking at her body in that way. 

So when I'm photographing weddings, I'm really conscious of like, and also the bride. I mean, I have to be careful about this one because traditionally the bride is this object because they're not meant to speak. I mean, it's a bit like the mannequin. You're not meant to speak. You don't give a speech. You get given away by a man to another man. You know, some of these traditions, I think are slightly challenging if you're kind of a bit more awake to these things and a woman. And I just thought, I wonder what I can do here because I was also, you know, saw a lot of these portraits of these women, and I have done these portraits sometimes and just thought, oh, I think they want that portrait of themselves, you know, looking a bit sort of demure and being a bit passive. 4

And slowly, slowly like I'm trying to create a space where my brides are them. And you know what? I work with some amazing women and I can probably list on one hand how many women have not given a speech, have not come into that space of being a bride as an equal person. They're not this subservient object. And I think that's really important as a woman to be understanding that about, you know, a wedding is traditional and does have these different nuances. And to be, you know, it needs to be updated. 

And I think when I started, I was just like, what is this? Like, why are women like portrayed like this the whole time? Yes, of course, we want to look good. Everybody wants to look good. That's a given. But, you know, the power and like, you know, beauty is not just skin deep. Like how can we make more interesting photographs? And I think that's where documentary photography comes into this a lot more. It's like really seeing my brides, because they are powerhouses and they're just incredible and encouraging them to be themselves on their wedding day and me not to then go, oh, can you just stand there just quite quietly? Because that may not be that woman, probably not. Or I can do that in a different way, rather than making them these passive demure objects. 

So when I'm sort of working with my brides, I really am taking in who these women are. And they're successful, powerful, strong women.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
It's fascinating to actually, as an observation, I've seen lots, like hundreds, thousands probably of brides redefining those traditions, I think, over the years and claiming them back now they're doing the speeches or choosing to be accompanied. I actually never say walked down the aisle. It just jars with me somehow. I refer to it as being accompanied and most of them are choosing both parents or choosing to walk down the aisle alone. And there's nothing wrong by the way I hastened to add with choosing to be accompanied down the island by your father. That's a lovely moment as well. But I'm also seeing kind of the redefinition occurring a lot. But it's so fascinating to hear you talk about your feminism and how you weave it throughout the photography and your art and everything that you create. And you refer to yourself as a documentary photographer as well. There's two questions here I want to ask you. First, you know, how would you describe your photography now? And also, what is a documentary wedding photographer? For those people who are new to the scene. How do you describe your wedding photography and tell me what a documentary wedding photographer is?



JOANNA (GUEST) 
Right, good question. Well, let's start with what a documentary photographer is, let alone a documentary wedding photographer. Ordinarily, a documentary photographer is there to document what is going on. And that means by not prodding it, like I always use that word prod, which is not very eloquent, they're not interfering. So whatever's happening in front of them, they're not stopping.

They're not going, oh, can you stop there and just stand in that light? Can you just, you know, they're not rearranging. They're not interfering with that, with what is going on. So their role is to be somewhere in the spaces. Capturing it and not stopping it and their job is to work out what they're going to photograph and at what moment. And that's a real skill because there's millions of moments happening all of the time in any of these events, whatever someone's documenting. So that's a documentary photographer. 
So the intention with wedding photography is you still want it to look good. There's still an expectation it looks good. And often with documentary photography, you don't have that creative direction. So to be a purist documentary photographer, you have to let go of any kind of art direction because actually you just have to just go with whatever happens. And I guess I love doing documentary photography, because it's actually real, because you're not manufacturing it. However, I'm quite an interesting photographer because I also have a side of me where I love art directing and I have a very clear vision of what I want something to aesthetically look like. And I do have a vision that I sort of see in my mind. And sometimes these two things don't fit together, because, you know, yes, I've got this vision, but if I just leave it to chance with documentary throughout a wedding, so to speak, and not intervene at all, yes, the documentary will be documentary, but my vision won't be incorporated into it. So I guess what I'm trying to say is I merged the two. So I'm documenting, I'm not kind of stage managing people but I've got an aesthetic that is very clear in my mind. So I will shape things but not in a very light way. And I think also, let's just be really honest about this, when you start down at the bottom, it's very, very difficult to have beautiful imagery because often you're in very challenging kind of environments because the nature of the beast, there'll be cheaper places with, you know, smaller rooms, not very good lighting, you know. I'm not saying that you still can't have good imagery, but I'm just saying that aesthetically, the more you shoot, the kind of aesthetics improve. And so actually I would say I'm at a really sweet spot where I'm shooting in lovely, beautiful locations that I don't have to art direct anymore not to the point where I have to use the kind of art direct to get the imagery that I wanted, that I knew that I had to kind of, what I wanted to create. And so now I have much more freedom to be more of a documentary photographer because the art direction is very, very minimal.

ANNABEL (HOST)
So, I want to ask you then, because there's this whole idea of how to interpose people that a lot of couples are really deeply uncomfortable with. But yet, some of the most valuable images after the wedding has happened to those where people have been brought together and asked to be together, because some of those people might not, you know, be there for much longer, or maybe elderly parents, you know, or relatives that you lose.

So is that a part of what you do as well? And is that, and that's a fun part of the day, right?4


JOANNA (GUEST) 

Yeah, and I don't do that like, oh god, I've got to now do this. You know, sometimes I have gone, oh god, I've got to do the family shots. But listen, you know, like I'm a mother, you know, I'm a daughter, I'm a friend. I have a holistic sort of understanding of the importance of the family and this idea of this is a moment in time for this family. And it will form part of a legacy.

Who am I to go, oh, I don't want to do that. Like, come on. Like, this is as important. And I do really genuinely feel that well, the marriage is different from the wedding. And then at the wedding, it's not just about the couple, it's about all the people that have witnessed all of the things. And it's sometimes the really minor people, you know, it's almost sometimes that I sort of look at a room and I'm kind of listening and I'm working my way around. And I have this sort of moment of like, you know when it's like the couple and then obviously then you know, their mum and dad have invited friends. And it's normally these people who would have seen that bride from the age of zero to that moment. How important these people are and who am I to say, they're not worthy of being in a photograph? Like it's not, that isn't down to me. And I think sometimes with the wedding industry…

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Do you think it can be a bit snobby sometimes, Jo, is that what you're trying to say sometimes? Because these images often aren't shared, are they, on social media? So you don't see them as parts of, typically as part of a photographer's portfolio. And in the past, I've seen a lot of kind of people speaking up saying, don't worry, we don't do group shots. And yet I'm like, my heart sinks, because I'm like, guys, they're the most important shots. And you might think they're a bit formal, because there's all this formality surrounding it, but those are the ones that you'll hold dear. And then you'll look back and go, there's my grandpa there in the corner, he's not here anymore. There's my grandma, she's gone as well. They are so important.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
It is a formality. Let's just name it. Like, you know, it is a formality, but it's a necessary part of this tradition and this ritual of getting married to be witnessed by the people around you who have brought you up, who have stood by your side, who you've gone to when you've been dumped and then, you know. I know that's what's going to happen when I get married, when I look around and see people that I know that have been there through thick and thin. And who am I to say that that's not worthy of an image? Yes, it's not photographing a really expensive pair of shoes, which, but that's a commercialised version that the wedding industry relies on to sell the products. I'm not there as a product photographer to photograph the dress, to make it look… like which then could be used to advertise that person's, you know, bridal range. Yes, that is something that does happen, of course. But my main reason for that is for the people. Like I'm telling the story of that couple, the story mushrooms and it's all of the people around them. And it's stories and moments that are beyond that day. But there's there these invisible threads between these people, which is born out of a long time of love, support, friendship, and if you can't feel or see that, and if you're just looking at it from a fashionable, like, oh, that's a killer portfolio, you know, oh, God, she's wearing that dress, and I'm going to photograph it and then I'm going to send it to you know, like, no. Would you know, it's just like we're there for the people and their families, you know.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
It's a really important point you're making actually. It's something I'm constantly aware of as an editor. All the weddings that we receive are beautiful. All the weddings that we publish are very, very special. But I see quite a difference sometimes between those ones that are, the focus is on the beautiful dress and the gorgeous shoes and, you know, the, the kind of, I don't know, it's just, it's very different. And then you'll get the more kind of homely ones that are… It is all about the family and I really try and make a big effort to mix up my content, to make sure I'm pushing that out as well, because I think it sends a really important message as a publisher that I'm not just here for the flashiness of it all. And the Loeffler Randall shoes have to say, I absolutely adore the Loeffler Randall shoes. But you could be barefoot and just the two of you and the feels that those images give to me would be just as impactful as a huge expensive extravaganza.

JOANNA (GUEST)
I think we need to just acknowledge that there's a commercialisation to all of it. You know, it's a massive big business, isn't it? The wedding industry. And there are elements of the commercial side of it that I also still really enjoy myself too. Like, I do like a sexy, glossy image.I really do. I do do that, but I also do… I’m multifaceted. So it's not like I just do one or the other. I worked out that the people are at the heart of what I do. It's going to look sexy and lovely and glossy in certain parts and it's going to look more people and more heart in other parts of my full narrative. I think we are just as you say we're edited this version of the wedding industry because they want to sell stuff you know and you know that kind of stuff is you know you get seduced by it you know you just say oh yeah that's lovely but actually you know I'm just going to do a little plug out to um John Dolan who's um an amazing photographer who's all about the people and his integrity with that is unbelievable and his images is just all about the people, all about the story and you know he's as raw as it gets and I'm not saying that I'm comparable to him at all but if I ever kind of wobble and think oh god I'm not glossy enough, I'm not commercial enough, I'm a bit too you know left-field with this or not left-field but you know a bit too honest, you know, and then I sort of go and have a look, let's go, let's check in with John, see where he's at. And it kind of then makes me think, no, I am right. It's just very persuasive, the glossy, sexy images. But I don't say I'm not, I'm not going to do one without the other. So I do both, which, you know, I have absolute heart and I'm seeking out the stories and the people and the relationships, you know, but I also do make space for some lovely, sexy imagery too because I'm a photographer. So that's the thing, that's my art direction and my documentary. You know, that's it coming together, fused perfectly for me. And that's also what I'm like in real life. Like I love a bonfire and I love a cocktail. 

ANNABEL (HOST)
And you've done some very cool fashion editorials as well haven't you for the likes of Luna Bea Bride and Bon Bride, you know really cool brands. So Joe.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Yeah, yeah, and I love fashion.



ANNABEL (HOST) 
Before I go on to the next question, so how would you, in literally a sentence, describe your work, your photography? If you were having a conversation with a client now, how would you describe it?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Okay, it's my strap line actually, which I make art which happens to be on your wedding day. 

ANNABEL (HOST) 
I love that. It really gives me something to think about that. I absolutely adore it. 

Also, I think that having looked at, you know, followed you for years now, watched this trajectory of your career and your personal life, I understand how much nature plays a big role in your life. And I know that you're a keen gardener and that you love the outdoors. What role does nature actually, you know, the natural world play in your life and the creative process? Do you draw a lot of inspiration from your garden and the world around you when approaching wedding photography? Is there a link there?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
I think for me, my garden is an extension of my creativity. And it's a very, it's visceral, Getting your hands dirty, getting your feet in the mud, you know, doing something so wholesome and simple. And I think it's that idea of, you know, the photography and when I'm commissioned to go on a job I will get my hands dirty. I will sow some seeds. I will stay there and let things bloom and blossom and be grounded at the same time. And so I do genuinely think it's like a way of life. And obviously the environments that I end up in now, you know, these beautiful places. . I sometimes cry because I'm not from that world. And I'm in these beautiful, often these beautiful gardens, Annabel and you know, I lie down and I just think, I'm so attuned to the environment from having my garden, understanding seasons. It's just like a gift of just a different awareness and sensitivity and the seasonality of gardens, the seasonality of weddings, you know, you work in the summer, it's quiet in the winter, like it's, like it's, it's a beautiful thing. And then obviously all of the flowers that are used, I literally just go, oh my God, look at, you know, and I often probably, you know, there with my camera going, oh my God, I'm literally having kittens. I'm tactile, you know, I'm touching the flowers, I'm smelling them.

I'm awakening my senses. I'm alive when I'm shooting. It's not just cerebral. You know, it's a three dimensional kind of world where I'm kind of, you know, going through the wedding like a gardener going through their garden in the morning.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Is it a spiritual thing for you?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Yeah, I do feel like that. I do feel like it's given me a softness. It's a sensitivity, for sure. And gardening is relentless. You have to dig deep, literally. You have to dig deep. Things fail. It's really humbling. It's a really beautiful experience. It's very quiet, it's very peaceful. Sometimes in a wedding it doesn't feel quiet and peaceful, but I can sort of put myself into different spaces within my head and often I'll just kind of just go look at the sky or I'll take my shoes off and just feel the ground or I'll go and smell something and it's like whatever madness is happening at a wedding and there's a lot of that, I just root myself with something natural near me and it's just like, oh right, I'm back, fine, let's crack on, let's go.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
So the calm that counterbalances the chaos of the day and the busyness of the day. That's lovely. I love that. 

It sounds like you have gained so much personal wisdom over the last 13 years. And I know that you started mentoring recently. Can you tell me what inspired you to move into that and perhaps what you've gained from that experience yourself?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Well, I guess it's full circle. You know, I trained to be a teacher back in the year 200, and, you know, I loved that. I did that for six years and I helped students get into university places and, you know, doing amazing things. And my dad's a teacher, my sister's a teacher. And I do believe in kind of giving back a bit. And I have done mentoring here and there. I’ve done a couple of workshops and I kind of feel like it comes around when I feel like I'm in a space that I can give. So I'll just offer it. And then I'll get some people, I'll work with some people and then, you know, it's not like a conscious thing that I'm like, right, now I'm going to do loads of workshops and I'm going to go and da da, and I'm going to go on the speaking circuit and I'm going to, you know, it's genuinely not like that. I just kind of go, oh, maybe I've got some headspace to sort of mentor people right now. And so it's as basic as that. And then I just do what I normally do and just think, oh, just put it out onto the internet, see what happens. And then people are like, oh, yeah, I'm interested. And I'm like, oh, OK, great, yeah. And, you know, I just sort of follow my nose with it. And I've, and I'm just coming to the end of doing a spate of mentoring and it's been phenomenal. It's been absolutely phenomenal. I can't begin to tell you, like, it's just so rewarding. And I feel like I want to empower others. I want to impart my knowledge. I want others to, you know, and the wedding industry is hard and people do struggle. And I just think, you know, I have got a lot of experience. I've got 13 years under my belt. I've been through it all. So, you know, to be able to pass that on and empower people to become a better version of themselves, better photographers, more confident. Courtney, who I mentored a couple of years ago, honestly, I just can't believe it. I look at her stuff and we're still in touch. That's another thing, we're all still in touch. I want to build this community of genuine support and cheerleading each other. Not like dog-eat-dog, right, I want that commission, you know, it's not that at all. It's like giving to others and I tell you what they all give to me in a way which fills my cup. It's not just a one-way thing and it's a beautiful thing. 
 
ANNABEL (HOST) 
I think people forget that it is a two-way relationship mentoring and there's as much in it for the mentor, I believe that, I really do, as their mentee. It's so lovely that you're doing that Joand paying it back. 

JOANNA (GUEST)
Yeah, well, it's just, you know, this whole like, you know, give. If you've got something to give, give it, you know, like, why are you holding back? Like, I hate that. I used to really hate, you know, being, I mean, this is a bit going with a tangent, but, you know, when you go for an exam, and people would just be like, oh, yeah, and they would just be like hiding everything and they'd be like a bit mean about it. I remember I always stand in a queue, I'd be like, no, I haven’t done any revision, no.

And then people would just, oh be really mean about it and this sort of competition and I hate competition. I literally, as soon as I smell someone that's competitive, I'm like, oh, get me out of this room. You know, I'm the opposite. I'm like, come on guys, let's just share the wealth. There's enough work to go around. Give each other wisdom, support, you know.

ANNABEL (HOST)
You know, it's so lovely to hear you talking like that, the warmth that you've pursued. And I think it's a part of why I like working in the industry because I see that warmth and I see the people helping one another and kind of, you know, helping to raise new generations. But actually it segues beautifully to the next question. I wanted to ask you, it's just, you know, you're sort of collaborating with other people and all supporting one another. Can you tell me about Counterpart Photos? I came across this in my research for you and it kind of blew me away.

JOANNA (GUEST)
Oh, well, they are amazing. So it's a collective that's been set up and I think I was there from the beginning and it was very small and it's a group of film photographers that have been asked to come together. And I think there was only like six of us to begin with, the film photographers, we're a bit left field, you know, we're not particularly commercially viable. We're a different kettle of fish. And I think Dionnie recognized that and just thought, well, what happens if I bring these people together? We're not gonna feel like, you know, it's just nicer together to have like a bit of a gang.

So it was just a gang of us together who had the thing in common that we shot film in a certain way, in this very much more documentary style way, less commercial. And we were kind of committed to being, you know, artists and being photographers. And that's where it started and it's sort of grown bit by bit, like all these things do, like a great garden.

They planted some seeds and it's blossoming and there's more people involved and it's just divine. It's… there's no competition. There's no ego. It's supportive, loving, generous, creative. It's like going to heaven. And I'm just blown away that I'm sort of, I'm part of that gang of people. And it's just like, it's like your teammates and weirdly, you know, I haven't been part of a gang in the wedding industry ever. I'm a bit of a lone wolf. And these guys said, oh, come over here. And I just went, yeah, sure. And it's, it's lovely. It's so positive. And they do a counterparts takeover where each photographer takes over Instagram for a week and everybody just deep dives their brain and their images. And it's just real, you know, no one's curating anything. You know, we're just messy, creative human beings making a beautiful mess together. 

ANNABEL (HOST) 
A collective of film photographers just sharing from their heart and supporting one another. I absolutely loved it. And I really, I was on the Instagram, which I'll share a link to in the show notes, but it is Counterpart Photos, just as it sounds, if you want to go and find it. But one of the things I came across was your Instagram takeover that you did for Counterpart Photos. And it's so packed full of personal information, but I asked you permission to read this quote during this podcast. I'm going to read to you.

This was in the Instagram caption you did during your takeover.

“Look, I'm a middle-aged woman, a single parent, creating pictures for incredible clients in the most amazing places. Ask me seven years ago, when I was newly a single parent and having to start again with a two-year-old, whether I would be where I am at now, I wouldn't have believed you. I dropped the ball with my business as I had too much on.

It took time to rebuild what I had lost. And I was overwhelmed and I started an eco-cleaning service to pay the bills while still running the business. I thought I was done for and that it was all over. Little by little, I clawed it back and started to dream again. And I was able to stop cleaning. Since then, I've gone from strength to strength. However, it's also been a wild ride. COVID hit and a personal trauma. Nevertheless, I'm still doing good and I am also renovating a house in France.

And this year, I am marrying an incredible man. The art of possibility is so interesting and has so much agency. It serves me well in all that I do, whether that is life choices, creativity in my work, or ambitions for my business. Dream big always.”

Jo, that is so powerful. I've got goosebumps reading it, honestly and I want to dig a little bit more here and ask you to speak on the importance of persevering through challenges and why it's important to never stop dreaming.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Thank you. I got choked up when you read that actually. I was like, God, did I say that? Did I write that? Oh my God. Yeah, perseverance, longevity. I always have it as like my catchphrase. I'm here for the long game. You know, like it's this again, it's like a garden takes years.

You know, things take years and some seasons the crops don't grow. You know, as a metaphor for life, there'll be seasons in your life which are expansive and easy and beautiful. And there's the other side of life. And I guess I don't shy away from that, the darkness. It's like, you can only have light from darkness. You can't see the light if you've not ever been in the dark, right? And I think, you know, especially with the world we're living in, everything's curated to be this shiny, perfect thing. You know what? That's not living. That's not life. And fortitude, resilience, digging deep, these real kind of core values of having to understand that there's no free easy ride, you know, and in those moments, you know, all you can do is you, you know, you can't control things, things are out of your hands, you don't know what's going to happen and you know, I've had some really awful life experiences and I remember having the choice, I remember thinking, you need to turn a corner. You need to, what can you and not being a victim to circumstances. Again, it's like I've had strong women in my family, and they've led by example. And I think when you go through something difficult, whatever that may be, and you keep going, you do realise there's a point that you push beyond it, and it will change. It's temporary. It's like rain comes and goes. And it's just don't give up in that moment. Push through and do whatever you need to do to get through it, but like, it's worth pushing through. Like, it's worth doing the long game. Don't quit. You can say I'm scared. You can say this isn't very good right now. I'm struggling, you know, but don't quit. You know, I had a two-year-old, my business was dreadful. I started cleaning what else is there to do? No one's going to save me. I also think that that's something quite left-field about me. I always think that no one's going to save you. Save yourself. You know, like you are responsible for yourself. No one's going to save you. That sounds quite harsh, but I genuinely believe that you have to resource yourself.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Well, you might think that sounds quite harsh, you saying that, but I think your words in that takeover in that caption were beautiful and really touched something quite raw around the fact that you can be vulnerable. It's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to own that life is messy. And you know what? There's everything in persevering through that and not letting yourself become a victim of those circumstances like you say. Because you have endless possibilities of what you can achieve once you push through that.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
You know what, and it will make you reframe things. And like for me, if things are hard, I go into creativity mode and I think, how can I creatively solve this? Often in my darkest times, I've made great work, great, great work. I'm very prolific in a creative way, rather than just be like, oh, now I'm a victim, I'm gonna freeze.

And I know it's different for everybody and, you know, my way isn't, you know, the only way, but it's proven to me that I can be resilient, still be creative and still beyond that, have a freedom to dream, which is, you know, like I said before, that's like my ultimate goal, you know, the possibility, you know, and that don't limit yourself.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Jo, I want to congratulate you on your upcoming wedding. How exciting. It's such a significant personal milestone for you and I can tell how excited you are about it. Has it changed the way that you approach your work in any way?

JOANNA (GUEST)
Do you know what, my brides are superheroes and grooms, but obviously organising a wedding, Annabel, oh my God, it's really hard work. It's really hard work. And also like, it is important, it is big. And also you do weird things. Oh, there's so many decisions to make. And I'm a bit like, so we're getting married in November, which is ridiculous because there's no flowers and no light. You know, the two things I adore. 

My lovely fiance is so pragmatic. He's like, right, let's just pick the date. Come on. Because I was like, oh, but maybe I could squeeze it in late April next year, but then there's Easter holiday. And he's like, Can we just make a decision? And I just suddenly thought, oh my God, I'm getting hung up on all this. Let's just do it. We just want to be married.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Oh, that's so lovely.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
It's a ride. It's a wild ride, that one. I'll let you know how it goes.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Please do. I was going to say, being on the other side is quite an eye-opener, I think, isn't it? Ha ha.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Oh, yeah, I'm not very good at being a bride. That's the thing I've learned. I'm very unbridled.

ANNABEL (HOST)
It's a big new chapter of your life for sure. So how do you envision it, you know, balancing the roles of being a wife, you know, a mother to your beautiful son, Fox, and a successful wedding photographer, are there any insights or lessons that you've learned along the way that you want to apply here?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
I mean, I just have to be present with the role that I'm doing. And that's not, no easy feat. And I've had to learn to do that. So obviously when Fox is really younger, I'd have to like drop him off at my dad's who would look after him and switch into like work mode. You know, juggling all the different roles. Do the role you're doing well at that time. Don't try and do multiple roles at the same time, because that doesn't work for me. Cause then you'll just feel guilty, torn. You're doing, you know, so like when I go to a job, you know, it's just like, I'm there, I'm going for it. And I literally do everything I can to have the best experience for that job. I do call home, I do say hi, but I'm unapologetically like I was in Miami at Christmas. And it was snowing here. And the house, like the heating is broken or something. And I'm, I'm FaceTiming from this pool, just going, Oh, God, it’s so hot here.

Fox is like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm having a great time. He's like, that's so unfair. I was like, I am working. So I'm making sure when I'm there, I'm having a great time. I do phone home. Don't get me wrong. I don't know how that goes down. But then when I'm with Fox, you know, I pick him up from school every day. I do the drop off every day. I do all the clubs. I take him on holiday.

I am in his life massively. You know, it's just these short spaces of time when I'm really consumed by work. You know, him and Andrew has to know that they're not the priority, but Andrew's got a really big job and he's exactly the same. So he completely understands, which is a game changer. And for him, when he does his work, I'm exactly the same. It's like, that's important to him. So it's just everybody understanding and nobody feels like they're losing out.

Sometimes Fox gets a bit like, you're always going to nice places. That's the thing. I'm going to LA and he's like, mummy, can I go?  No, darling, it's a work trip. But, you know, I really, you know, I can't wait to go to LA. And I feel a bit guilty about it, but he's not coming.

ANNABEL (HOST)
I was going to ask you is guilt a part of this at all? Have you learned to combat that? You know, have you decided, have you reached a comfortable space where you're like this is my work but I also I need to rest and recuperate and recover and enjoy this as well without any guilt attached to it?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Yeah, there's no guilt because I've grafted hard in motherhood. You know, I've done everything for that boy and everything I do is for him to make him have a great life and opportunities and stability. So if I book a massage in the hotel, day after a wedding, I genuinely love it. I don't have any guilty feelings. I'm looking after myself. And my dad said to me quite early on motherhood, if you go down it all goes down. So you need to look after you. So I take it I take that you know very seriously and if that means having room service and a massage, bring it on.


ANNABEL (HOST) 
I love it. I absolutely love it. Cause I've grappled as well with the whole guilt thing, you know, being tied to my desk and working all, you know, all those years. And a friend said to me some years ago, you shouldn't feel that guilt, you know, because they're, they're growing up seeing you grafting and that stands for something. 

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Right!

ANNABEL (HOST) 
You're still there loving them. You know, you're, you're there doing the school pickups and all the rest of it, but they're seeing you work hard and even, you know, off air before we started, I was saying, I really, I am actually thinking I'm starting to see the signs of that, you know, coming through now, because I'm so proud of my daughters. You know, my 17 year old is so independent and like, maybe I played a bit of a role in her, you know, that the person she is now it's like, Oh, the dots are starting to connect, Annabel.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
You know what, it's like that sort of like, I don't want to be a martyr. Like, I will say to Fox, I'm working hard, I'm loving it. Because I also want him to understand that women, mothers are working. And they're not just like in, you know, downtrodden that they can, I know this is difficult. But you know, you can work. I'm showing him that, you know, I have to have my own identity, my own space. you know, that I've got agency, that I'm an individual. Yes, I'm his mum, but also I'm this. So then when he has relationships in the future, he'll respect that in women and think, well, I'm gonna support my future partner, whether it's man or woman, to kind of go, that's important, you know, because I know that, because my mum did that. You know, it's important he sees that I'm working, you know, that I'm, you know, that things are possible. I'm showing him, I'm the living proof, you lead by example that imprints somewhere, I think, on your kind of nervous system or somewhere in your soul. And then you start to recreate that yourself. And that comes from my parents, you know.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Leading by example is so important, isn't it? You're giving them the signature for life that they'll follow. Your son, your boy Fox is clearly such a precious part of your life, Jo, and a great source of joy for you too. How does your relationship with him influence your creative work and the way you approach capturing the essence of love and family in your wedding photography?
JOANNA (GUEST) 
Yeah, I mean, he is just at the heart of all of that. I thought I understood love and family. And you do. But when you have a child, you know, it's like another room you go in. You know, it's like, it does something. What it has done to me to understand, I can really clearly see other mothers, other sons, other daughters, parents, you know, it's like a whole sort of realm of the underworld that I kind of am feeling. And obviously, you know, me and him have been like a little unit for so long. I had to make things work. I had to keep a roof over our head. And I remember editing some of the days and then, you know, having to then get back into motherhood quickly and then trying to put him to sleep, trying to make him go to sleep. So I had to edit, you know, all night.

You know, and I don't have an office or anything, you know, swanky. I edit in the corridor and I would glance. He'd always be in my bed because, you know, it's just too difficult, him jumping out of his bed. So I'd put him to bed and I'd have the radio on and I'd just work for hours. And I just would look, glance over and I'd just see him sleeping. And it just is life affirming, you know, so I just then it gives me just more, it's given me more heart in a way. You know, my motivation is for him. I see him in other children. I see other mothers like me. You know, I look at some of the mums with the grooms. Oh my God, that absolutely floors me when I see them, because like they're sort of a quiet, that mother isn't, you know, the mother of the bride is, has got the spotlight, but the mother of the groom, I've always got my eyes on the mother of the groom, because I'm like, I might be that mother of that groom. And, you know, it's just, you have this deeper connection to your subject if you are fully embracing, you know, the people you are photographing. It's just a deeper human connection, I think. It's just, yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
I love it. I love how you embrace the family and it weaves its way throughout all of your work. 

Jo, tell me a little bit about this gorgeous property that you're renovating in Normandy where you spend time with Fox and Andrew. How did this come into your life, this incredible opportunity, and how do you split your time as well between England and France?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Well, good question. Well, we go there whenever we can, which is the holidays, basically, when I'm not working, go there on a ferry. I'm always posting Instagram stories of the sea. It's so lovely. It's just very poetic, actually, because, you know, you can't rush that ferry ride. Anyway, so the house, yeah, it was, it just sort of happened.

I was driving through a village and it was harvest and these two combine harvesters were coming down the village and I was staying in this village. I'd booked to go on holiday. Actually my dad told me to go on holiday because he said I was insufferable. I'd been dumped by this bloke who I really liked. It had been, oh I was really heartbroken. My dad was like, just go away, clear your head, please. And he goes, I'll give you like three days, I'll take the boy. I was like, okay. So I was like, oh where am I going to go? So I thought, oh I'll just drive.

I like the ferry. I thought I'll go to France. I found this Airbnb in this random village. One day, I kept coming back to the Airbnb, these two massive convoy harvesters are thundering towards me. And the French, you don't play chicken there with like, oh, I'm going to go. So I just like parked the car like on this, on this path, which was in front of a house and waited for them. Oh, you know, this dust flying off them. And I'm just sitting there, just like, I'm not going to attempt to go out the road yet. And I turned my head, I'm not joking, and looked at this house, I was like, oh, interesting. It was really ugly, but had this amazing garden. And then on the gate was a for sale sign. So what do I do? I take a photograph of the for sale sign. I go back to the gite. Later that evening, after some rosé and my dinner, I just thought, oh, I'll just Google it and so I brought it up on the website. Then, before I knew it, I'd emailed them using Google Translate just saying, I'm in the village for a day or like two days. I'd be interested in seeing this house. Next thing I knew, I'd get a text message the next morning from Johan saying meet me at the church at 1pm. So as with all of these things, I thought, oh nothing to lose, let's just see what happens. He didn't speak any English by the way. I didn't speak any French. I can order a baguette and some wine and say thank you and hello. That's it. So he's wandering down the road from me. He's this sexy French estate agent that I was just like oh god and I was just a bit hungover then thinking what am I doing. He took me into the house. It's full of black mould. Like it was dreadful. Dead mice. It was disgusting and I knew,  I just knew, I was like, oh God, I knew that, I knew that house would be mineI thought shit, and from that moment onwards, I literally just was like, okay, fine. Yeah, I like that house. Bit by bit it came together and it wasn't through any force of trying.

The woman I stayed with, she was like, oh, somebody saw you go in the house, the village house. I was like, who saw me? And she's like, oh, some woman down the road, did you look at it? And I was like, yes. And then she told me the history of the house. So then I was hooked. 

This house has been in their family for three generations. It's been empty. He used to make Calvados. He was an avid gardener. He died there. You know, so she sort of told me all this back history. She was like, I've looked at the house. I thought of buying it. It's been empty. It's got a real damp problem. She told me all of the pitfalls. And then she just gave me the builder's card and she said, you might need that. I was leaving the next day. And then bit by bit, I reached out to the builder.

I reached back out to the estate agent. I got my dad with me. We went back in October on a terrible day, raining. And my dad was like, well, these people aren't gonna turn up, are they? And I said, they are. I met Elizabeth. She was there, the woman I stayed with to translate. The builder turned up, the estate agent, and we all went in the house. The builder did a quote for the work. The house looked even worse. My dad was like, well, this is ridiculous. He was like, you are mad.

And then, you know what, I put an offer in. They accepted. The rest is history, literally. Oh, then Brexit happens and then the pandemic. And that house is honestly, it's bonkers. It's absolutely mad. So I'm renovating it because it was a hell hole, but it's turning into an absolute thing of beauty. And then one day I'm gonna live there and be totally French, because I love it.

ANNABEL (HOST)
That sounds so incredible. 

JOANNA (GUEST) 
It just happened Annabel.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
I love the photos and the stories that you share and the journey that I've seen from you, you know, having this old place and starting to build it up and paint it and plaster and bringing beautiful furniture and pieces that you've salvaged. And it's so characterful. It's a beautiful place.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Joe, when you're not renovating and doing all the other millions of things that you do in your life, I think you stay quite fit, do you not? You run and I've seen you riding horses lately. Can you tell me more about running, riding and the influence?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Well, you need to be fit to be a photographer. That's a given. And the older you get, you have to just start investing in that. I mean, I run because my dad runs and my stepmom runs. My dad's 79 this year and he runs. My stepmom's 70. She does, um, like Ironman competitions. They're quite odd, a bit strange. Honestly, so again, they've led by example. And so running is always a bit of a thing for our family. So I've run on and off and I love it. I get like a complete buzz from it. It's a mental health thing as well as a physical thing. I do yoga. And recently I found a horse to ride because I was just like, I really want to get back doing that. Someone loaned me a horse. I had to go up before school. I had to like, I had it for free, but I had to muck out four other horses and I did it before school.


JOANNA (GUEST) 
Again, it was all very sort of like tin pot, but you know, I love horses. They were like my spirit, spirit animals. I go to the countryside on a Tuesday. I've got this horse to ride. He's called Mr. Delicious. And he's an absolute gem. And we go up the steps, down together and we get up on there and then I squeeze him and we canter. So again, it's like my thing of freedom. Um, so that's why I do that in my daily life to kind of make sure that I've got that part of me.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
I remember during lockdown, a planner that I work with saying to me, oh my God, I need to get a match fit. And that point you made just then about needing to be strong and needing to be fit, to be a wedding photographer is so true because you're on your feet constantly all day.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Oh my God. Yeah. And so I've also recently got a PT. So I do strength training because I hurt my back because you're running around with like cameras and stuff and you're sweating and you've got to be strong. So I do take it seriously. I, you know, I look at kind of my mental health and my physical health as like, you know, it's just something that you have to do.

JOANNA (GUEST)
Maybe it's getting older, I don't know. Maybe in your 30s you take it all for granted, but you hit 40 and you're like, oh, hang on a minute. You know, I might have to get some attention. So I do look, I love looking after myself. I grow vegetables, eat organic food. You know, I cook from scratch. I'm one of them. I do have the odd wild night. I'm not completely like, I'm not a saint by any means. In this period of my life, I am sort of taking care of myself
and there's a lot of benefits from that I think.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
So if you weren't doing what you do right now, Jo, being the incredible wedding photographer that you are, is there anything you think you might be doing instead?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Yeah, this sounds a bit cliche, but I'd probably be a gardener. It's something that I might do. The other thing I might do is I might sort of do something to do with something spiritual.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
I like the sound of that.

JOANNA (GUEST)
Because my dad nearly became a priest, so I might, maybe I'll join some sort of like religious sort of spiritual thing where I might become a kind of a leader in that. I think that would be really worthwhile. Maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just create like a weird cult in the countryside. 

ANNABEL (HOST) 
A mystic French cult.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
You know, some Utopia place for people to come and live. Grow vegetables, we'll hang out, we'll make art, we'll... Yeah, you know, that sounds really airy-fairy. That's as good as I got. 

ANNABEL (HOST) 
No, it doesn't.

JOANNA (GUEST) 

It's very, very on brand, isn't it?

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Jo, we're nearing towards the end of this incredible conversation, which I've loved so, so much. And I want to ask you some fun questions very shortly, but first of all, I want to say that this podcast, I really want it to empower both brides and couples and business owners and anyone who's interested in running a creative business in the wedding industry. 

So I want to ask you what advice you would give to aspiring wedding photographers who are still early on in their career based on everything that you've been through so far?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Just throw yourself in, get as much experience as you can. Just, you know, roll your sleeves up say yes to lots of things. Get as much experience as you can under your belt that's the best thing. You've just got to just do as much as you can. Where you've got that energy as well. You've got the energy, you're fresh. Say yes to things, give it a go. Don't ever undercharge. So that's the other thing. I'm really like think now. Know your worth and don't undercut, don't undersell. Please God, don't do that.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
I always say that to my mentor. I'm like, how much do you charge? How much?

ANNABEL (HOST) 
How do you calculate your worth though when you're so new to the scene? How do you calculate your worth? It's such a difficult thing, isn't it? 

JOANNA (GUEST) 
I think what I used to do is, I used to work out like an hourly wage. And I used to sort of like work out then how much, literally do the maths, like how much I was getting paid, how many hours I'm spending on my business, how much my running costs were, like make it mathematical if it's too like, rather than plucking just to figure out the air. because it's not representative, you know, like how much do you want to get paid an hour? Do you want to get paid 20 pounds an hour? Do you want to get paid 30 pounds an hour? You know, like, I think I used to cost out like shooting our rate one thing and then admin our rate, and then I used to work backwards. That's the other way of doing it. How much money do you want to make a year? How many jobs does that mean? Is that 20 jobs, at two grand and you want to make, you know, 40 grand.

And then I always used to then look at my peer group and then work out, because I don't want to be undercutting someone. So I'd work out then what roughly, you know, the kind of the market I was in. That's how I'd say how to price yourself. Be realistic. And I think, you know, with experience, then you charge more and more. But don't charge too much. 

ANNABEL (HOST) 
You have to profit from it at the end of the day? 

JOANNA (GUEST) 
You do. I've seen people do in both ways. I've seen people charge peanuts. I've seen people charge loads and they haven't got the experience. So there's, you know, there's a sweet spot. Yeah. So that's what I would say. Just get on it, enjoy it.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
And what, for the brides who are listening to this conversation, what's your one piece of advice for them as they're planning their wedding?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Enjoy it. Which she says like not enjoying it. Oh, I don't know. It's so difficult. But like, oh, don't get bogged down in Pinterest, you know. Remember it's a wedding and it's a marriage and it's a family. You know, it will look sexy. So just let go of it and let go on the day. I mean, I don't know how I'm going to be like this, but just let go.

It's not gonna come around again. Like everything's led up to that moment. So let go, because nothing else can be done in that moment. So you might as well just absolutely just be present and let go and enjoy it.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
That's excellent advice and actually that comes through a lot as well when we share our words of wedded wisdom, when we ask our brides who fill in our questionnaire, what's the piece of advice that comes up so often. Okay, Jo, I've got a couple of fun questions now just to finish our conversation. Can you tell me if you were stranded on a desert island, what three items would you want to have with you?

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Right, a pair of goggles.. A photograph of my family and finally a sun hat, because I'll get sunburned. That's it.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Goggles, sun hat and a photograph. Yeah, that's my life.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Excellent and Jo, if you could travel back in time and give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would that be?


JOANNA (GUEST) 
Don't worry about anything because it's all going to be fine in the end. Don't worry. Get on with it.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
God bless your heart Joanna Brown - thank you so much for joining me on the Love My Dress podcast. I've loved this conversation. Thank you, Jo.

JOANNA (GUEST) 
Oh Annabel, honestly, we've known each other for a long time and to see your journey is always inspiring and amazing. And you are an inspiration and it's woman to woman and business owner to business woman. It's an absolute joy. And look at where we've come from and where we are. Like it's just great. So thank you very much. I'm really honoured to be here.

ANNABEL (HOST) 
Thank you.